Purple People Eater Now as promised/threatened I’m afraid I’m returning to the matter of the “take back parliament” coalition. Firstly though a correction to my earlier post in that Mark Ross appears to have no connection to Ekklesia except they published a puff blog for Take Back Parliament, so sorry about that.

Anyway onto looking at how they all sort of hang together, I’ve had to be quite restrictive in this as other wise it all spins out into far too wide a web very quickly. so I’m sticking to only looking at one or two degrees of separation. I’m also having to use a rather horrid table as being fairly new to this presenting this information in a useful fashion is quite tricky.

So anyway hopefully this will make sense and shed some more light on the Take Back Parliament coalition, who doesn’t seem to be that keen on open and transparent or that bothered about foreign influence on our democratic system.

This table just tracks down those groups listed at the bottom of Take Back Parliament and pulls out odds and sods of possibly interesting information. Before we get to that though a few facts about “Take Back Parliament”.

Take Back parliament
is co-ordinated by Mark Ross, Head of Campaigns for POWER2010
the media campaign/website appears to being run by Blue State Digitial a mainly American company but with a UK subsidiary BLUE STATE DIGITAL UK LIMITED (Company No. 06873977).

Now onto that coalition:

Coaltion member Controlled by Supporters/Partners in common Client of
Power 2010 The Democratic Reform Company Ltd
Company No. 07087541
Lord David Trevor Shutt of Greetland
  • OBV (Operation Black Vote)
  • BASSAC
  • NEF (New Economic Forum)
  • Electoral Reform Society
  • Compass
  • Unlock Democracy
  • Open Democracy
  • Ekklesia
  • 38 Degrees
Blue State Digital
Electoral Reform Society ELECTORAL REFORM SOCIETY LIMITED
Company No. 00958404
- Blue State Digital
APC
SoapBox
Enoughs Enough Domain registered via an anonymising service - Athenaeum Limited
Ekklesia EKKLESIA LIMITED
Company No. 05831226
- -
AVAAZ.org Domain registered by a private US individual – Ricken Patel,
organization founded by
Move On and Res Publica
- -
Compass Neal Lawson
Jon Cruddas
- SoapBox
Open Democracy OPENDEMOCRACY LIMITED
Company No. 03855274
previous: POWER AND DEMOCRACY LIMITED
  • Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust
    - Lord David Trevor Shutt of Greetland
  • The Tinsley Foundation
-
OBV Charter 88
  • Joseph Rowntree Charitable Trust
  • Electoral Commission
  • Home Office
SoapBox
Vot for a change Electoral Reform Society
  • John Sauven, Greenpeace
  • Neal Lawson, Compass
  • Ken Ritchie, Electoral Reform Society
  • Pam Giddy, Power Inquiry
  • Wes Streeting, NUS
  • Peter Facey, Unlock Democracy
  • Richard Grayson, Social Liberal Forum
  • Benedict Southworth, World Development Movement
  • Dr Matthew Sowemimo, Director – Social Liberal Forum
  • Katherine Rake, Fawcett Society
Blue State Digital
SoapBox
Unlock Democracy Unlock Democracy
Company No. 02440899
Formerly:
09/07/1991 CHARTER 88 LIMITED
02/05/2008 CHARTER 88
  • Joseph Rowntree Reform Trust
  • Enoughs Enough
  • Electoral Commission
  • European Commission
  • Poverty & Environment Trust
SoapBox
Hang em Open Democracy Ekklesia -
BASSAC
Charity number: 1028784
Company number: 2869337
- Novas Scarman -
Greenpeace Without knowing just which bit of Greenpeace not even attempting this
Friends of the Earth - - -
Fawcett society
Charity No: 1108769
- - -
Democracy Matters
Charity No: 1108769
Titus Alexander – Novas Scarman Group
  • BASSAC
  • Novas Scarman Group
  • The Democracy Trust
  • Unlock Democracy
-
Social Liberal Forum James Graham (Secretary and website manager) is currently the Campaigns and Communications Manager for Unlock Democracy - -
National Union of Students Not attemtping this one either
Muslim Council of Britain
charity 1084651
Not attemtping this one either
British Muslims for Secular Democracy
Company No. 05905516
- - -
World Development Movement WORLD DEVELOPMENT MOVEMENT
Company No. 02098198
WORLD DEVELOPMENT MOVEMENT TRUST LIMITED
Company No. 03188734
charity 1064066
- APC

So there you have it quite a cosy coalition, not quite sure about the grass roots element of it, but there you go.

Just to have a quick look at some of those names, I’ve already mentioned Blue State Digital – who also have as a client those well known “grassroots” campaigners “38 Degrees”. Soap Box are apprently “communications agency for think tanks, campaigns, politicians and NGOs” with an interesting client list, so a lot like BLue State Digital. The other interesting one which cropped up in a few of those groups DNS records was APC – The association for progressive communications who apparently help grass roots movements like say “the elctoral reform society” and have an intersting list of funders.

I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with any of this as such, it’s just a tad obscure and international and not that much that speaks of a ground swell of popular non-activist self-interested involvement. The grass roots bit of thier campaign appears to have gone a bit quiet , despite there still being no-sign of PR on the political agenda, just fixed term parliaments with AV.

Anyway in the interest of our new open and transparent plotics, that’s how the take back parliament campaign and its coalition roughly fit together – at just a very few degrees of seperation.

For those that are interested this data mainly came from domain registration look ups, the various groups websites and then lookups at Companies House, The Charities Commission and the FSA Mutuals Registrar.

Infrastructures

I’ll be returning to looking at the whole take back parliament thing later, but I’m still digging there so meantime I thought I’d pull together a few bits on something that I’m more familiar with. The Devils Kitchen has a link to an excellent article on the Panopticon Parliament which coming so close on the heals of Charlotte Gore’s article about the new front in the battle for liberty – prompted me to revisit an old bug bear of mine. Whilst we’re fighting tooth and nail (or at least letter and blog) to curtail the state intrusion into our lives, we’re at the same throwing our data at private companies (when they’re not just taking it), whilst demanding decentralisation of our authorities we opt to use an increasingly small number of providers for our internet activities. Now I do know there is a difference in that we can at least notionally choose who to use on-line with far more freedom than we can change our laws and government, and there’s nothing stopping someone becoming the next facebook or google. However these on-line behemoths don’t exactly go out of their way to let us know what they’re up to, and with so much data concentrated in so few hands it does make the governments job an awful lot easier if they chose they wanted to get their hands on that data.

So perhaps it’s time we looked at once more decentralising the internet (as it was designed to be) and avoid making the same mistakes on line as have been made in the real world, perhaps it’s time to take back some control and independence whilst it’s still fairly easy.

If you don’t think this is a significant issue, let’s just look at a few recent “mistakes” made by google and facebook. Not so long ago the google toolbar was caught transmitting data when disabled, more recently Google street view cars were found to have been collecting wifi network traffic when they only intended to collect enough data to uniquely identify everyone’s wifi router (they’ve currently stopped deleting that data as it may be evidence) and to round it up facebook have been giving user names to advertisers. So aside from that sort of mistake there is the designed centralisation of internet usage that companies like google push for as part of their business plans – the more they know about us the more adverts they can sell. So let’s consider just how much data google could amass if they felt like it or were asked to do so. There’s the obvious data source of the google search engine, but if you avoid that how many pages do you visit that are signed up to google analytics and so are passing back your data to google anyway? Of course if you use google mail, or blogger then you’ve consented to let google have your data and use it according to their dynamic privacy policy, and if you use google wave don’t count on anything you say ever being deleted. But even that is just the tip of the iceburg if you choose to use the google DNS servers then google can track everything you even thing about looking at, and I would ponder how long till those servers are used by default in some mobile phones and home ADSL boxes. If you’re logged into any google service then in theory all this data can be linked.

But tying this back to my recent subject of interest you don’t even need to be google to track people to this extent, if you were running a popular on-line campaign and providing icons or widgets for people to put on their websites you could get a reasonable amount of tracking data. The EFF have recently demonstrated that your browser may be uniquely identifiable even if you change IP address, and that data can be combined with the browsing history your browser gives away. I’m not of course suggesting that anyone is doing this, and I do use quite a few of these services myself. Interacting with people on line without touching these services is these days quite difficult, and if you’ve many less paranoid friends the inconvenience of not using these services is distinct. So just like in the panopticon prison where the fear of being observed tends to make you confirm, the desire to not be socially excluded acts as a pressure to sign up to numerous data collectors and give away data bit by bit in exchange for more pretty icons. Foursquare is a wonderful example of this by letting you call yourself “mayor of X” they’ve got people to voluntarily track themselves in the real world.

So what to do about this, well as I’ve said before run your own servers, and encourage the move to decentralised services. Why have accounts on every networking site when OpenID (much as I lambast it) or it’s like could allow for self control of login data, if the work being done at OStatus gets adopted then independent sites can get all the benefits of social networking but in a distributed fashion. Trying to make this a reality is the Diaspora project* (hat tip SamizData). If such things get supported then we can use whatever independent provider we choose or even run our own home servers (You can now get a plug computer that is quite usable as a low traffic server). With Governments getting less and less keen on not having the internet firmly regulated, the only sensible direction to preserve our current freedom of association and expression is away from large global providers of social networking and other services. Or we can look at the situation where to even print something on the printer on our desk we send it to google first, or perhaps to a government archive instead purely for our own good. Ultimately the choice I suppose is if we want to pay for the services we own with cash or with a loss of privacy so that people can make the money to run those services by selling our details to someone who will pay cash.

* Disclosure I’ve chipped in to support the Diaspora project.

Update There’s also an article about how the private sector are invading our privacy over at Big Brother Watch

So back to the purple brigade, and many many thanks to Woman on a Raft for supplying me with some of this information (see comments here and here). I was getting quite confused as to how all the main players were related so I put together a bit of a family tree to try to make sense of it all. All of the information is in the public domain I’m just trying to put it together – in the spirit of our new open and transparent politics.

How they are related

Just to try to explain that a bit the dotted lines from BlueStateDigitial show their clients, the solid lines indicate clear channels of control (e.g. Mark Ross registered the domain for “take back parliament”, the other solid lines to “take back parliament” indicate members of the coalition). Despite this starting from Counting Cats post I can’t find a direct link from this lot to 38 Degrees though interestingly they did used to be registered as “Progressive Majority”.

Anyway back to the main players the client lists of both BlueStateDigital and SoapBox Communications make interesting reading as there are a lot of familiar names in both places.

For instance SoapBox list “Charter 88″ Unlock Democracy, Compass and the Electoral Reform Society as clients all of whom are part of the TBP coalition. Their other clients include people such as UNITE, but then “SoapBox is the communications agency for think tanks, campaigns, politicians and NGOs” – so perhaps it’s hardly surprising to see so many names cropping up in the same place. Looking at the supporters list for SoapBox client “Vote for a change” quite a few other TBP coaltion members crop up such as:
Benedict Southworth, World Development Movement
Dr Matthew Sowemimo, Director – Social Liberal Forum
Ken Ritchie, Electoral Reform Society
Neal Lawson, Compass
amongst others.

There are more interesting cross links, which again are surely just due to shared goals:
Coalition member Democracy Matters is it self a coalition that includes TBP supporters BASSAC and Unlock Democracy. The same group of names also crop up supporting Power 2010 including our friends over at Ekklesia(though oddly they list the Muslim Council of Britain twice.)

Many of the other TBP members are politcal “think tanks” e.g. New Economics Foundation and Ekklesia or politically associated group such as Social Liberal Forum (Which formed out of the LibDem Beveridge Group)

So with just a bit of poking around this great grass roots movement collapses into a circle jerk of think tanks, think tank controlled “independent” sites all mainly leading back to the same vested interests they helping us all protest about.

But at least that lot are at least notionally British, here for the delectation of all those that complained about the “foreign” influence of lord Ashcroft are a few of TBP’s international members:
Avaaz.org – Ricken Patel – New York
enoughsenough.org – registered via a Canadian anonymous domain registrar
power2010.org – registered by BlueStateDigital – Washington

That of course is ignoring possible international influences such as Greenpeace.

If you can fill in any further gaps that’d be great but I suspect it wouldn’t actually be possible to plot all the interconnections in this popularist movement, but the involvement of so many people from the “old” politics the campaign is meant to be changing troubles me. The same old think tanks, quango’s and wonks representing the same vested interests – I find it hard to believe their interest in reform has the same goal as many of the people on the protests.

Much as I hate to bang on about the purple people over at “Take Back Parliament” but just noticed something rather interesting the domains takebackparliament.com and takebackparliament.org were registered before the election.

Both domains were registered by Blue State Digitial on the 29th April as can be clearly seen from the whois data:

Domain Name: TAKEBACKPARLIAMENT.COM
Registrar: TUCOWS INC.
Name Server: NS1.BLUESTATEDIGITAL.COM
Name Server: NS2.BLUESTATEDIGITAL.COM
Updated Date: 03-may-2010
Creation Date: 29-apr-2010
Expiration Date: 29-apr-2011

Domain Name:TAKEBACKPARLIAMENT.ORG
Created On:29-Apr-2010 15:47:07 UTC
Last Updated On:03-May-2010 16:42:03 UTC
Expiration Date:29-Apr-2011 15:47:07 UTC
Name Server:NS1.BLUESTATEDIGITAL.COM
Name Server:NS2.BLUESTATEDIGITAL.COM

Now of course it doesn’t hurt to be prepared, but I can’t help wonder just when Mark Ross (of Ekklesia who is also described as Head of Campaigns at Power2010 (thanks to Woman on a Raft)) first started talking to BSD and planning this campaign as websites such as the “Take back Parliament” campaign has don’t normally happen over night. The more I discover about this the less like grass roots and the more like astro turf the whole thing seems. But with first mover advantage taking back our voice from those behind “take Back Parliament” so that a genuine gras roots movement can emerge is going to be nigh on impossible.

This post is going to link to quite a few old articles as every time I’m about to write it something new adds to the pile of stuff that needs to be included. So it’s time I accepted the pace of things happening is just too fast and I should try to tie a few bits together knowing it’s all going to be out of date before I hit publish.

The Government has a love hate relationship with the Internet, it loves the amount of data and control it could give over us but hates the fact that it allows people to talk to each other and exchange ideas. As such they have to pursue a multi-pronged approach to the Internet, make sure that everyone is connected and then make sure they control what we do and see. It sounds fanciful I’ll admit but sadly it does rather add up.

Consider that the Government wants as many people on line as possible which makes sense as they also want us all to have our very own personalised website for dealing with the government (H/T Old Holborn) – perhaps with links to online terrorist reporting or other such important civic tools. If you’ve not got a computer they’ll buy a laptop for you, which will probably have webcams which if activities in the US are anything to go by, which will be used to monitor you for “improper behaviour”. Perhaps as is already happening with CCTV cameras operators monitoring your behaviour will issue a warning. Of course I’d fully expect these personal websites to feed into CRB checks, and for security purposes you’ll no doubt (after a few suitable scares) need an ID card to login.

To make things even more like ” 1984″ housing estates are being built with their own Broadcasting channels and giant TV screens, to go with all those screens being installed in schools and doctors surgeries (along with yet more CCTV cameras), showing government information films.

The other main prong as mentioned is control, well:

Falling back to using old fashioned post to communicate and thus avoiding the internet won’t I’m afraid help.

Meanwhile out in the real world we’re already being made to walk through check points when wandering around our cities during police “lock downs”. To put aside any concerns over exaggeration as to how bad things have got even the Information Commissioners Office are saying “that we are in fact waking up to a surveillance society that is already all around us.”. Just to make that surveillance easier the Government is working on tracking us via our mobile phones, even with out that it’s already very difficult to disappear.

All in all it does rather add up to a quite unpleasant state of affairs

It’s really quite amazing what gets hidden in the budget, like HMRC being allowed to intercept any suspicious mail anywhere in the country and open it before it is delivered. (hat tip LPUK). Now to be fair they can intercept stuff at the moment, but they have to tell you before they open it, the plan is in future they can just open stuff without telling you. The relevant section of the Postal Services Act 2000 is already quite vague but does at least state clearly that they have to give you the chance to be there when they open it. Once they can start opening stuff without telling you the possibility for feature creep is huge, especially after people haven’t complained too much – nothing to hide nothing to fear and all that. If nothing else I’m sure efficiency savings will soon allow people other then officers of HMRC to make that initial inspection. Then combined with the various legislations that require people to report any evidence of “offences” they happen across it would seem to be reminiscent of tactics used by other less pleasant states.

Oh and just for good measure this is planned to come in in the next 4 weeks so before any general election could stop it.

Amazing how things like this get tucked away in the oddest of places, isn’t it.

update Just noticed that the Royal Mail spokesman said:
Royal Mail has no powers to open the mail
which isn’t true as the previously mentioned act states:
107 Conditions of transit of postal packets

(1) If a postal operator knows or reasonably suspects that a postal packet is being sent by post in contravention of section 85, he may—

(a) refuse the transmission of the packet,

(b) detain the packet and open it,

(c) subject to any requirements as to additional postage or charges, return the packet to its sender or forward it to its destination,

(d) destroy or otherwise dispose of the packet”

Section 85 is mainly about dangerous parcels and dirty pictures.

For quite a while now Leg Iron has been talking a great deal of sense about how the powers that be like to ban things and use the same methods every time.

The most successful they’ve been recently and the blue print for it seems banning everything else was the smoking ban where we now have to worry about third hand smoke, and they’re looking at stopping you smoking in your own house or car if children are present, and of course publicans will be fine and imprisoned for not stopping people smoking when they’re not there. The moves against alcohol are very obviously under way with yet further tax increases planned and repeated talk about minimum pricing and “voluntary” labelling schemes. Caffiene is in the firing line as are elctronic cigarettes and now it seems so is salt. To the extent that New York politician is proposing to fine fine restaurateurs if they “add salt to food”, I can only assume that this imbecile has never actually tried cooking without salt. However there is as always the alternative soft push so that we’re relieved that a more reasonable approach has been taken:
However, the mayor has stopped well short of proposing an outright ban on restaurants adding salt, instead campaigning for a voluntary cut of a quarter over five years.
The voluntary cut, will do doubt become less voluntary and then limits will be set and the limits lowered but still better than an outright ban, and much easier for people to make mistakes for which they can be fined.

When combined with the recent proposed changes to music licensing for church halls one really does have to suspect the aim is to stop people socialising. The smoking ban is killing off the pubs, but not quite quickly enough and people still meet for drinks, so they’re attacking drinking. Coffee shops are becoming popular meeting places once more so they go for caffeine, but people might meet in restaurrats but regulations on salt (and surely other ingredients not long after) will help stop that , as will the caffeine and booze limits. Then kill off local social centers by pricing them out of the way and there are no community controlled places left for people to meet.

Of course it is more likely this is just disconnected attempts to control every aspect of our lives for our health and the sake of the children, but the affect will be the same no social cohesion and socialising only in state sanctioned large corporate venues. Which won’t be serving tea, coffee or anything much to drink.

Soylant greens all round?

Update I forgot to link to this excellent article by LegIron when writing this so here’s the link he Saltfinders are coming.

I’ve been meaning to write this for quite a while and never quite getting round to it, but the recent post over at Devils Kitchen has prompted to actually do something. If you read Devils Kitchen and Leg Iron already you can probably just skip this as I’m not going to say anything new and will be linking to them extensively, as I’m just trying to pull a load of stuff together for my own benefit.

This thread goes back quite a long way especially over on Leg Irons, who seems to have predicted events rather well – though we’ve not yet travelled all of that road . But today Devils kitchen brought to my attention that the powers that be have taken a leaf from the SNP’s book and are in favour of minimum pricing per unit for alcohol. Setting the minimum price at around 40 or 50 pence a unit. It’s worth at this point stopping to recall that “a unit” is a measurement invented by the government, and so subject to redefinition if the minimum pricing isn’t raising enough money, sorry doing enough to prevent binge drinking. So perhaps in that regard the Tory proposal to change from units to centilitres works in our favour, though no doubt it’ll be dropped as soon as they notice that it makes things more transparent. Also notice that the minimum price also covers spirits, now what’s the betting that this will turn out to be rigged in some way to apply before excise duty? Given that excise duty already accounts for a fair chunk of the price of spirits? As this government doesn’t seem to have any qualms about banning things, and is probably stupid enough to try prohibition, one has to conclude that this is as much about getting more taxes as it is a matter of control and probably very little to do with the stated goals..

Of course it is being sold as being to protect precious NHS resources, so presumably we can soon start to see taxes on ski-ing holidays and other activities which increase the risk of injury and thus costs to the NSH. Public backing is wanted for the scheme and will no doubt be provided by the various fake charities that exist for just such a purpose.

Taxes though aren’t the only weapon they hope to deploy against drinkers bar staff have a role to play as well no longer asking “same again” but offering water instead and so “slowly” drinking will be denormalised.
There are laws already in place that would address the alleged problems if they were enforced. They could even charge fixed penalties for bars serving people when drunk or for being drunk and disorderly which would help the revenue issue. But using existing laws has never been popular with this government much better to penalise everyone even though alcohol consumption hasn’t actually risen. All of which makes me wonder, as many times before, if either the government is really that incompetent, is just addicted to making laws or if as others suggest the aim is greater control of the population.

Greater control of the population seems more likely as booze seems to be following the same path taken with smoking. Once booze is nicely unerway they seem to already have lightbulbs, batteries and food lined up to be tackled next. Not to mention driving, taking photographs and a host of other things all subject to increasing controls and heading towards being banned. Every time it’s for the sake of the children/environment/NHS and every time nothings banned out right as people would notice that, instead costs are pushed up (got to keep that tax revenue), choices are curtailed and the individual singled out for opprobrium. None of it achieves the stated objectives, it isn’t meant to, it just makes us all guilty of something, all at risk of summary punishment, all part of the “other” and thus all controlled. Fear and control really do seem to be the only aims that make any sort of sense. Not breaking the law won’t even be sufficient as they’ll just arrest you until you prove you haven’t broken the law. An obvious up shot of this would be the rise in home brewing and other untaxed activities in the home, but they’ve got that covered by encouraging children to spy on their parents (and look out for terrorists for now) and a shiny new database to track it all.

Obviously as we’re so often told, it would be nonsense to even suggest that we might be heading towards being a totalitarian sate – but there does seem to be a hell of a pattern emerging. Though perhaps it is actually just a new puritanism, a medievalist revival where it’s ok to “sin” as long as you act suitably penitent and buy your indulgence.

Much as I hate to have two posts in a row just pointing you at other articles, but I’m just going to have to live with that.

First off there is a rather ill thought out advert to persuade us all to get ID cards – apparently so that we can be executed, as spotted by The Register (do read the comments) and taken up by Big Brother Watch.

Which rather ties in with another excellent article from the keyboard of Leg Iron – a hypothetical future where people without ID chips get pulled from the street. Go read it and decide how unlikely it seems to you.

In the comments on LegIrons article was an anonymous link to a rather interesting if possibly a bit tinfoil hat video about the Codex Alimentarius – rather long but actually interesting enough to watch all the way through.

Loads of people have already dealt with this far better than I ever could, notably Bishop Hill and the Devils Kitchen. The response over at Real climate is also quite enlightening, especially as they feature in some of the hacked emails (Oh and claim to be independent of any environmental organizations) .

So go and read what these more informed people have to say, in the mean time I’m going to address just two points which come up in the defence of the scientists on Real climate. Firstly there is the claim that it’s all out of context and it’s vital that scientists e-mails are never seen for fear it will hamper their discussions. Apparently the fact that in business you have to assume that courts may see your mail is irrelevant, as in business I assume they believe that you don’t need a free and open exchange of ideas. This is really just so much nonsense, historically the amount of private correspondence between scientists that has been published as well as “private” notebooks is huge. Also obviously if they’re being funded by the tax payers then all of their work belongs to the tax payer, and how do you misinterpret people saying they’d rather delete a file that release it due to a FOI request? As we’re so often told if they’ve nothing to hide they’ve nothing to fear.

More worryingly from a scientific point of view is the huge and obvious reluctance to share their data and models with other people. Only allowing peer review by select and (presumably) friendly/sympathetic peers is not the way to do good science. The hypocrisy of claiming that they need to be able to speak freely to advance science whilst at the same time looking for ways to avoid sharing their work and data with other academics and talking about hiding behind IPR is somewhat shocking (well it would be if it was new).

The one thing, which I think the revealed data does show is that the science for significant man made climate change is nowhere near as solid as we’re led to believe. The robust debate for which hiding data is vital, isn’t allowed to reach us mere mortals despite the changes that are being insisted on to combat models which are still the matter of such robust debate and seemingly such suspect data. The way that bits of data sets are seemingly casually discarded when they no longer fit the favoured model is quite worrying, why should say tree data suddenly become unreliable? If there’s good evidence of some external change affecting that data fair enough, but if it’s suspect after point X with no such external change why isn’t it also suspect before then. It’s details such as this which I think go beyond “ambiguous at worst”

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